"All he does is make plays"

[c.carterhof]

That, according to Percy Harvin, about Joe Webb. Everyone is thinking it, well almost everyone (Freds).
So lets put it out there, I believe that Webb has what it takes to be a starting QB in the NFL, a winning QB at that.

I like what I'm hearing from his teammates and coaches-
Leslie Frazier- "Because of some of the things he does, and what it does for the rest of the team, you can’t ignore him. It’s something you’re going to have to take a real hard look at going forward. He’s done it. He did it a season ago, as you recall."

Shank- "When we need him, he comes through," Shiancoe told the Star Tribune. "He’s got a track record now. As a quarterback, he’s extraordinary. I think he’s definitely a starting quarterback in this league, put in the right position.’’

Harvin- "Magic. He's gifted, man," receiver Percy Harvin said. "He's one of the gifted players that you can't describe. You can't practice it. Not too many teams got quarterbacks that can do what he does." And about the 36 yarder- "Those are the big plays I've kind of been talking about all year, plays we were just kind of missing," Harvin said. "One thing about Joe is he's known for being the gunslinger. If it's a deep ball, he's going to throw the deep ball. If it's a run, he wants to run for the 80 yards. Once we knew it was zero blitz, it was no doubt in my mind that Joe was going to let it hang out."

More from Frazier- "In clutch situations he finds ways to make plays."

Hmm, isn't that what you want from your QB? Look, I don't know that Webb is going to be any better than Ponder. I think Ponder has shown some promise. I like the kid, and his mistakes can be characterized as rookie mistakes. I hope he is our QBOF. But I'm not sure of that either. What I am sure of is that Joe Webb should be the starter versus Chicago on Sunday. He has earned it, there is no question about that. All he has done is lead scoring drives. I'm not positive, but I think it's 7 drives in a row. Or maybe it's 6 out of 7, the one he didn't was the last play against Detroit. Which was at their one yard line.

He seems to have that 'it' factor. All I am saying is, lets give the ball to Joe this Sunday and see what happens.

[Big Johnny]

Agreed CC, Webb has earned the start this week. If nothing else why the hell would they play Ponder with a concussion and injured hip at this point?

[Brett A.]

If Ponder is healthy and able to play, I think he should. Playing Webb sends the wrong message that Ponder is not our quarterback. We spent a first round pick on Ponder... it is much too soon to cast him aside (which is essentially what you would be doing by playing Webb over him Sunday if he's healthy). Ponder is a better Quarterback than Webb. He's made mistakes, sure. But, he is a rookie and has been put in to play for a time that doesn't even come close to having the pieces he needs around him to make him successful.

Webb is a spark, that much is true. But sparks die out quick. While I do think we need to find ways to utilize Webb, I do not think he is a starting quarterback who can lead us to a championship. I think [hope] Ponder is.

[adammwarwas]

I would have to disagree with the assessment that he has been "clutch."

I look at two plays:

Example #1: Three weeks ago against Detroit, Webb had one yard to go in order to win that game. I talked about the O-Line disaster on that play, and the facemask was much discussed, but the fact remains he failed to make a play (or at least throw it away) and instead fumbled the ball. Game over, Vikings lose.

Example #2: Last week Webb was at quarterback with an eight point lead, 1:11 on the clock, and a third and five situation. A first down ends the game. Coming out of the shotgun he only had to make a simple option read (something that is supposed to be his strength) and he held onto the ball after making a horrible read and was sacked of -3 yards. The Vikings had to punt, and the Redskins had a great chance of sending the game into OT against our awful defense. They failed, but still... "cluth quarterbacks" know how to put a game away.

Not ripping the guy by any means... I just think the assessment is inaccurate.

[c.carterhof]

If Ponder is healthy and able to play, I think he should. Playing Webb sends the wrong message that Ponder is not our quarterback. We spent a first round pick on Ponder... it is much too soon to cast him aside (which is essentially what you would be doing by playing Webb over him Sunday if he's healthy). Ponder is a better Quarterback than Webb. He's made mistakes, sure. But, he is a rookie and has been put in to play for a time that doesn't even come close to having the pieces he needs around him to make him successful.

Webb is a spark, that much is true. But sparks die out quick. While I do think we need to find ways to utilize Webb, I do not think he is a starting quarterback who can lead us to a championship. I think [hope] Ponder is.

It is too soon to cast him aside. But I don't believe that's what you're doing by starting Webb. I would say it's more like telling Ponder that he has some competition.
Ponder doesn't have the pieces? But Webb does? What makes you so sure Webb is just a spark? How is starting just two games and coming in for what amounts to another game enough of a gauge to know? I'm not saying who I think is better, I just think it would be wise to let them battle it out. Doesn't matter who was picked higher.

[CalVkg]

the team plays better when webb is in. we've seen that all along. give him more playing time, see what happens

i'd be pissed if he were a diamond in the rough, we let him go, and another team polished him up

[c.carterhof]

Okay, we have two so far on starting Webb. Johnny and Cal.

Adam, you named two examples for Webb not coming thru in the clutch.
I could name about 5 or 6 times that he has, maybe more if you count last year. By clutch he could mean a 3rd or 4th down play.
I guess it just boils down to how you define 'clutch'.

[adammwarwas]

That is fair CC, but I think the two examples I gave would be defined as "clutch" in everybody's book. Third downs and fourth downs can vary in importance, but even then I would hope he has made more than just 5 or 6 clutch plays in the time he has been on the field... help me out, what are some of the plays he has made that you would define as clutch?

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a shot, I'm just saying that "clutch" is not an adjective I would say Webb has yet earned. Even the Eagles game last year... I still think Winfield (a defender) did a lot more to win that game for us than Webb (a quarterback) did.

I'm just watching out for ya CC. Don't want you to be crushed when he turns out to not be who you think he is.

[Big Johnny]

Webb should start this week, concussions are nothing to screw around with. If Joe pulls a Spurgeon (sp?) in the first half then pull his ass out and try Ponder or Sage. Geez this aint rocket science.

[Brett A.]

It is too soon to cast him aside. But I don't believe that's what you're doing by starting Webb. I would say it's more like telling Ponder that he has some competition.
Ponder doesn't have the pieces? But Webb does? What makes you so sure Webb is just a spark? How is starting just two games and coming in for what amounts to another game enough of a gauge to know? I'm not saying who I think is better, I just think it would be wise to let them battle it out. Doesn't matter who was picked higher.

What matters in my mind is this: Frazier made it very clear when he replaced McNabb with Ponder that if he was going to make that change, it would be permanent. No 'ifs, ands or buts' about it. Ponder already has idiot fans booing for him at home games - something that blows my mind. If Ponder is healthy this weekend and he is benched in favor of Joe Webb it sends a message to the team, the fans... everyone that there is debate on whether Ponder is our guy. That's not what he needs. That's not what the team needs. It also shows that our coach can't stand by the things he proclaims he is going to do. It's not even like Ponder has played horrible. What would be his justification for benching Ponder in favor of Webb? Instead, play Ponder in this last game (if he's healthy) and give him another opportunity to show why he should be our quarterback. They can compete in the offseason.

Look, I know Webb has come in and done some great things for us. He is incredibly talented and finds a way with his feet to make things happen. But I do not for one second believe that he is a long-term, Superbowl caliber, starting quarterback. I just don't. I've seen some of the passes he makes... his decision making...

Ponder has had basically no offseason to learn the system. He has no one around him that is helping his cause (especially with AP not in the backfield). His line leaves him for dead immediately after snapping the ball.

I can understand saying we should play Webb because he can make more happen with his feet and Ponder may get killed behind our line... but at the same time, I think it's more important to play Ponder, stand behind him being our starter (now and in the future) and help build his confidence in the fact that he is the future of this team.

[Big Johnny]

Brett I think the growing feeling is that Denzel reached on Ponder and is gonna do whatever he has to and give him his shot, eerily like Childo did with Tjack. Right or wrong I think that's what's going on here. But hey it's a good problem to have two young guns battle it out like this.

[LeCount]

Bench em both! Start SAGE!

[B. Grant]

Brett: "I think it's more important to play Ponder, stand behind him being our starter (now and in the future) and help build his confidence in the fact that he is the future of this team."

Exactly! Can I get an "amen", brothers?

[c.carterhof]

Adam, clutch plays? Okay, the Lion game- Down 31-14 with about 5 minutes left in 3rd
3rd and 10 at MIN 35 (Shotgun) J.Webb scrambles right end for 65 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
Down 34-28 about 3 minutes left. The whole drive was clutch, except for the last play, which you pointed out. Here are a few-
3rd and 10 at MIN 33 (Shotgun) J.Webb pass short left to T.Gerhart to MIN 42 for 9 yards.
4th and 1 at MIN 42 T.Gerhart right tackle to MIN 44 for 2 yards.
2nd and 10 at MIN 44 (No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Webb pass deep right to G.Camarillo pushed ob at DET 39 for 17 yards.
4th and 6 at DET 12 (Shotgun) J.Webb up the middle to DET 2 for 10 yards.
Redskin game-
Winning by 7 about 12 minutes left.
3rd and 10 at MIN 28 (Shotgun) J.Webb pass deep middle to P.Harvin to WAS 36 for 36 yards.

He hasn't played but about 3/4 of a game, how many should he have? I do appreciate you looking out for me Adam. I'll try to temper my expectations a bit.

[c.carterhof]

You make some valid points Brett. And if Frazier believes he is THE guy, then I'm all for it.
But even Les sounded a bit unsure after that game-

by Tom Pelissero
1500ESPN.com
LANDOVER, Md. -- Two appearances. Two rallies.
That was enough for coach Leslie Frazier to open the door on Saturday afternoon for the possibility of Joe Webb as the Minnesota Vikings' quarterback of the future.
"Some of the things he does, man, and what it does to the rest of our team -- you can't ignore it," Frazier said after Webb led three touchdown drives in relief of injured Christian Ponder and the Vikings beat the Washington Redskins 33-26.
"It's something we're going to take a real hard look at as we go forward. He definitely lifts our team. He's done it. He did it a season ago as well."

I appreciate that Frazier is the kind of man that sticks to his word. But at some point you should also be rewarded when you perform well like Webb has. I believe he has earned it.
Michael Lombardi NFL.com, "I don't care where the Vikings drafted Christian Ponder, the best quarterback on the team is Joe Webb. He is a playmaker and should get better and better. The Vikings need to build around Webb, not Ponder."

A quick question. If Webb did start and threw for 275 yards 3 TD's, ran for 80, and we beat the Bears...would that be a bad thing?

[FragileFreds]

Carters,

You know your old pal Fragile loves you, but you are a crazy bastard. Freds thinks you are simply kidding about this whole thing. Right?

Can you name a hand full of times Denzel has said a negative thing about anyone? Coach Lez only says only positive things. Freds sites the below as exhibit A:

Coach Frazier when asked about Charles Mason:

"He's got a great level of intensity, really focused eyes, stylish hair and an X on his head to help him remained balanced and chicks dig him".

See what Freds' saying? Anything Denzel says about anyone (including Joe) should be discounted.

Keep him at backup, this talk of JJ as the long term answer for the Vike is just plain kooky!

[Fran the Man]

Carters,

You know your old pal Fragile loves you, but you are a crazy bastard. Freds thinks you are simply kidding about this whole thing. Right?

Can you name a hand full of times Denzel has said a negative thing about anyone? Coach Lez only says only positive things. Freds sites the below as exhibit A:

Coach Frazier when asked about Charles Mason:

"He's got a great level of intensity, really focused eyes, stylish hair and an X on his head to help him remained balanced and chicks dig him".

See what Freds' saying? Anything Denzel says about anyone (including Joe) should be discounted.

Keep him at backup, this talk of JJ as the long term answer for the Vike is just plain kooky!

I'm sure you meant "Manson" not "Mason" right?
I know the correct spelling because I once saw it written on a jail house wall in Independence California. Manson had written it himself (Yes, I was once in the same jail cell as Charlie Manson, my claim to fame) so you can be sure it was spelled correctly.

And Ponder should start if he has no lingering effects from the needless hit he took last week.

[c.carterhof]

Didn't take you for a trouble maker Fran. The joys of youth...

"Keep him at backup, this talk of JJ as the long term answer for the Vike is just plain kooky!"
You are coming around old pal! It wasn't that long ago you were saying he didn't belong on a football field.
Now he is a backup QB?

[Brett A.]

I like what Zach Kruse over at Bleacher Report says here:

Even if those long-term plans do hold true, Ponder is Frazier's quarterback to close the 2011 season.

And that's exactly how it should be in Minnesota.

Look, I understand the feeling amongst some regarding Webb. He's an electric athlete and there's a pretty good argument to be made that the offense has clicked better under Webb than Ponder.

Webb might even give the Vikings a better chance to win in their season finale against the Bears. I'm willing to go that far.

But there's no reason to give up on Ponder as the starting quarterback in Minnesota yet, and there's more reasons for that thinking than starting Webb right now.

Most of the Webb supporters are simply a prisoner of the moment. You see the magic he put together last Sunday and think, "Well, that just knocked the socks off what we've seen from Ponder."

You can't be so near-sighted. No one expected Ponder to come into Minnesota and save the day in his first season. Is the small sample from Ponder, who has had his moments, enough to close the door on his career in a Vikings uniform?

The Vikings have to let Ponder develop, and Frazier is sending a strong message to his team about that development. Any chance of the locker room being split on who is the starter ended with Frazier's announcement Wednesday.

This is Ponder's team. And it should be.

Webb is a fantastic backup quarterback, one that should be used in certain packages during each and every game.

However, Ponder is the quarterback who gives the Vikings the best chance at long-term success. Gadget quarterbacks don't survive.

Credit Leslie Frazier for keeping the future of the Vikings in mind instead of allowing himself to become a prisoner of the moment, which could have been a locker room divider heading into one of the most important offseasons in Vikings' history.

[c.carterhof]

" Ponder is Frazier's quarterback to close the 2011 season.
And that's exactly how it should be in Minnesota." - Don't agree, but I do see some logic behind it. Stick with your man...

"I understand the feeling amongst some regarding Webb. He's an electric athlete and there's a pretty good argument to be made that the offense has clicked better under Webb than Ponder." - Yes

"But there's no reason to give up on Ponder as the starting quarterback in Minnesota yet, and there's more reasons for that thinking than starting Webb right now." - Agreed that there is no reason to give up on Ponder as the starting QB. No reason to give up on Webb either.

"Most of the Webb supporters are simply a prisoner of the moment. You see the magic he put together last Sunday and think, "Well, that just knocked the socks off what we've seen from Ponder." - There is some truth to that, no doubt. That doesn't mean Webb couldn't be the QBOF. Just because he has outplayed Ponder short term, doesn't mean he won't do it in the long term.

"You can't be so near-sighted. No one expected Ponder to come into Minnesota and save the day in his first season. Is the small sample from Ponder, who has had his moments, enough to close the door on his career in a Vikings uniform?" -Of course not! Is the smaller sample from Webb enough to close the door on him?

"The Vikings have to let Ponder develop, and Frazier is sending a strong message to his team about that development. Any chance of the locker room being split on who is the starter ended with Frazier's announcement Wednesday." Ponder will develop regardless of who starts this game. He is going with Ponder, I disagree, but support the decision all the way. If I were a teammate, that would be my stance.

"Webb is a fantastic backup quarterback, one that should be used in certain packages during each and every game. However, Ponder is the quarterback who gives the Vikings the best chance at long-term success. Gadget quarterbacks don't survive." - Dude just showed me he doesn't get it. That is the wrong line of thinking, you need to be more open minded. Just a gadget QB? If that's the case then he shouldn't be your back-up QB. Right?
See what I mean? That shows no respect for Webb. I suppose Tebow and for that matter Newton are gadget QB's. I'm not saying Webb is as good as Newton, but with some experience I think he could be. If that's how you view Webb, then I'm wasting my time talking with you about it. Cause you are not taking my points seriously...

[Brett A.]

Who are you talking to CC?

I didn't write that article just said I agreed with some of the points made.

And even if I did agree that Webb is more of a gadget QB, that means I'm disrespectful and undeserving of discussing the topic with you?

[c.carterhof]

I'm talking to MR. Kruse and anyone who agrees with him that Webb is just a gadget QB.
I think it's disrespectful to Webb, because he has shown that he can play the QB position. Not just wildcat. In fact I would say he is better when he plays in the normal offense.
I did not say you were undeserving of discussing of the topic with me. Just that if your view of Webb is nothing more than a gadget QB then I think you are not seeing the same things that I am. And if you watched the game and that is your opinion, then I'm not getting anywhere in our discussion. It's one sided.

[CalVkg]

http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2012/1/7/class-of-2012-finalists/