Trade or stay?

[Stubby]

With several teams going to be desperate for what looks like an A+ QB draft class, should Vikings use high pick or trade it for more picks. I'm inclined to let Ponder develop and focus on filling the many holes. O line needs a huge boost. No high pick QB would want to play behind this line. True #1 WR and of course every secondary position also need filled.

Should the Vikings try and trade down and pass on another rookie QB or on Blackmon for more picks?

[LeCount]

Take Kalil, be it the 2nd or 3rd pick in the draft. Know that you have a blue chip Left Tackle, and use your 2nd round pick with all the confidence of the 2nd or 3rd pick in round two. The 30th something pick in the draft is still a damn good player.

[Purple Faithful]

Trade.

We have massive holes in the defense & alone the offensive line. I would build the defense up with the earlier selections & I think that can be done with later picks. Our offense is scoring points & if you look at the superbowl winners going back for quite some time, their left tackles are all 2nd round or later selections, including charlie Johnson with Indy.

Here's the plan:

Take RG3, get a monster deal for him - cleveland needs him & has two first round selections, Snyder's desperate & shannahan needs a QB or 2012 is his last year in the NFL anywhere (i bet), Miami's owner appears to want the limelight - he'll definately pay through the nose, - so, trade value chart to move down to 6th or so, would be a 2012 1st, 2nd, 3rd & more. I'd want another first over that, either in 2012 or 2013, because I'm greedy like that. Here's the best part - without us selecting a Kalil or Claiborne at 2, one of them is bound to slide. We should be able to get a blue chipper, plus a 2013 blue chip & two potential starters if not stars by simply playing "chicken" & forcing a desperate team to deal.

[Purple Faithful]

Oh, one more team that would likely be desperate for RG3 is Seattle. For those of you who wrongly have man-crushes on Left Tackles, we could easily trade RG3 for Russell Okung & Seattle's first round selection. Then we have our LT (bleh, imo) & can still get a player that actually contributes to winning, instead of possibly helping not to lose.

[LeCount]

Just a point here Purple....why would Seattle trade its franchise left tackle just to get a QB they couldnt protect? All the stars are shining too brightly in the masses eyes right now. RGIII? who says you could get a monster deal for him? At best, he is the third QB taken. Call me an old fuddy duddy here, but I still believe the best way to success is through the trenches. Sign the damn O Lineman, and quit playing madden with the draft.

[Purple Faithful]

Just a point here Purple....why would Seattle trade its franchise left tackle just to get a QB they couldnt protect? All the stars are shining too brightly in the masses eyes right now. RGIII? who says you could get a monster deal for him? At best, he is the third QB taken. Call me an old fuddy duddy here, but I still believe the best way to success is through the trenches. Sign the damn O Lineman, and quit playing madden with the draft.

Review the left tackles taken for the last ten years in the top 10 or so. zero rings....

Jake Long - miami sucks
Joe thomas - cleveland sucks
Okung - seattle has won it's last three games with him on IR, plus they suck.
Jason Peters - st louis sucks & so does JP
Trent williams - he sucks as do the skins
tyrone smith last year's playing RT for dallas.
hey, lets look back on the greatest LT prospect of all-time! Tony Mandarich. Maybe Kalil can be that good.

--- ok, that's getting old. let's just look at the super bowl winners:
Charlie Johnson, Indy, rd 6, pick 199
max starks, rd 3, pick 75 pittsburgh steelers
chad clifton Round 2.44 GB
Matt Light. 2.48th NE
Marvel Smith, round 2.38 steelers
Jon Stinchcomb, rd2 pick 37, New Orleans
David Diehl, round 5 pick 160, NYG
I'd copy those teams for drafting, personally.

You would prefer to copy washington, miami, cleveland, st. louis, seattle & the like? I don't see the point in that. There's a salary cap these days & free agency. we only get so much treasure to work with & LT's do not score touchdowns, pick off passes, or get sacks. They are not impact players. Best you can hope for with your shinny LT is that the Bears line peppers across from him instead of Loadholdt & that teams blitz at him instead of up our middle, etc.

[Purple Faithful]

Oh, I think RG3 is better than Barkley, too, LeCount. What I don't like about Barkley is if you look at his stats be quarter, he's basically the anti-tebow. great the first three quarters & the last one - not so much. To be fair to him, i haven't checked out his fourth quarters this year yet, but I've never been impressed with him. RG3, on the other hand, took a team that minus him would be "right there" fighting it out for the national championship, in division III, and he brought them into Norman Oklahoma where he destroyed the Sooners .

quarterback comparision link

http://www.nflgridirongab.com/2011/12/17/2012-nfl-mock-draft-top-12-with-updated-1217-draft-order/ - that mock draft shows RG3 going 2. I think it's the only play & then either keep him or get a king's ransom.

Anyway, your thoughts, gentlemen?

[adammwarwas]

Very interesting conversation going on. Obviously, I would say it is premature with a lot that can change things. Players declaring or not. Bowl games. Senior Bowl. Combine. And, perhaps most importantly, free agency.

I will say this, though, the Vikings draft strategy will come down to faith. If they have faith in Ponder, then their top pick will not be a QB... and, in fact, a veteran will be signed likely putting an end to talk of them drafting a QB (unless it is Luck). If they have faith in their scouts, then trading down to pick up multiple good players instead of just one will be heavily pursued (but it does take at least two to tango).

Me personally, I would rather trade down and get two stud guards than one stud left tackle. Or two promising recievers instead of one promising QB. I really, really, really, like that Kuechly kid out of Boston... but the second or third pick is way too early to take a linebacker.

We'll see how things progress, but don't be surprised to see me gradually beating the "trade down" drum louder and louder as the Draft gets closer.

[Malte]

I would want the vikings to trade down in the 7-12 selection and pick up a Martin if he's there.
Then what ever else we get for this trade should be used on one of our many needs, but the after the bpa princip. With a left tackle allready taken, we have needs at DB, WR, LB, DT, G. The only positions i don't want us to select would be RB and TE.. otherwise just go with the best player, cause we need help in so many ways.. - Trade down so we can get established some of our needs

[adammwarwas]

I disagree that tight end isn't going to be a need, Malte. Shiancoe is a free agent after this season. Kleinsasser too, if he doesn't retire that is, could leave via free agency.

Tight end is very important in this Musgrave offense. Dual tight end threats seem to be trending upwards (Patriots). And if Rudolph gets injured who do we have behind him that should actually be playing football?

[LeCount]

Review the left tackles taken for the last ten years in the top 10 or so. zero rings....

There is a reason those guys dont have rings....they play for shitty teams.You still have to put the rest of the package together. Successful teams dont pick as early, and usually the top linemen are gone when they draft.

I understand your points, and good points they are.

On the other hand, wouldnt it be nice to land an Orlando Pace, Johnathan Ogden, Bruce Matthews, or an Anthony Munoz? All first round guys.

And my favorite of the bunch....Ron Yary was a first rounder (Ist overall in fact) Wouldnt hurt my feelings to have a future HOF anchor the line for a long stretch.
Not saying Kalil is a future HOF, but it does happen.

[LeCount]

Oh, I think RG3 is better than Barkley, too, LeCount. What I don't like about Barkley is if you look at his stats be quarter, he's basically the anti-tebow. great the first three quarters & the last one - not so much. To be fair to him, i haven't checked out his fourth quarters this year yet, but I've never been impressed with him. RG3, on the other hand, took a team that minus him would be "right there" fighting it out for the national championship, in division III, and he brought them into Norman Oklahoma where he destroyed the Sooners .

Believe me, I know full well what Griffin is capable of, (Lifelong Sooner here) I like him alot. I suppose if the offer were rich enough, and the move down wasnt too far removed, one would have to entertain such.

[Purple Faithful]

Review the left tackles taken for the last ten years in the top 10 or so. zero rings....

There is a reason those guys dont have rings....they play for shitty teams.You still have to put the rest of the package together. Successful teams dont pick as early, and usually the top linemen are gone when they draft.

I understand your points, and good points they are.

On the other hand, wouldnt it be nice to land an Orlando Pace, Johnathan Ogden, Bruce Matthews, or an Anthony Munoz? All first round guys.

And my favorite of the bunch....Ron Yary was a first rounder (Ist overall in fact) Wouldnt hurt my feelings to have a future HOF anchor the line for a long stretch.
Not saying Kalil is a future HOF, but it does happen.

There is a reason those teams are shitty - they didn't draft impact players, they drafted left tackles!!

But, yeah, if we do make a mistake to appease fans stuck on an outdated Modus operandi & draft a left tackle, I'd sure prefer it was a good one. The team that springs to mind that continually drafts offensive linemen high has been Kansas city, pre-Pioli. (New England under him never really did - 3 rings, just sayin') Not really a juggernaut of rings or even division titles. I think it's so easy to say a cliche' like it's won in the trenches. You can maybe lose in the offensive trench with a lack of effort & planning, but you can't win. defensive trench? sure. quarterback? yep.

Heck, let me even make one further point: Vikings decided to ride AD & gave him a 100 million dollar contract. AN elite guard would help him & therefore help our offense more than an elite left tackle. Half of CJ's sacks given up are likely because Ponder can't step up with the DT's going through our interior linemen. So, trade back, trade back again, trade back again to 17 or so & select the best guard if you wanna go that route & then use the bounty of second round picks to fill other holes, if you can find one on this roster.

[Malte]

I disagree that tight end isn't going to be a need, Malte. Shiancoe is a free agent after this season. Kleinsasser too, if he doesn't retire that is, could leave via free agency.

Tight end is very important in this Musgrave offense. Dual tight end threats seem to be trending upwards (Patriots). And if Rudolph gets injured who do we have behind him that should actually be playing football?

I see us keeping shiancoe and going with V. Shiancoe, K. Rudolph and Allen Reisner.. Perhaps we draft an inline blocking TE later in the draft, but i don't see us going TE in the first 3 rounds unless the situation is that the best TE still is there in the 3rd round.
I think we have 4 big needs: OL (both gaurd and help at tackle) secondary (both safety and corner help) WR (a typical WR is needed to give harvin some space) DL (only thinking DT / NT here)
thats how I see it. In order to have a chance to make those position a little stable we will have to trade down in the 15th + range perhaps.. Or I could see us trading down and still be able to draft martin, move c. johnson to gaurd (if he is strong enough to play there) and then start to adress everything else.

[Purple Faithful]

I disagree that tight end isn't going to be a need, Malte. Shiancoe is a free agent after this season. Kleinsasser too, if he doesn't retire that is, could leave via free agency.

Tight end is very important in this Musgrave offense. Dual tight end threats seem to be trending upwards (Patriots). And if Rudolph gets injured who do we have behind him that should actually be playing football?

I see us keeping shiancoe and going with V. Shiancoe, K. Rudolph and Allen Reisner.. Perhaps we draft an inline blocking TE later in the draft, but i don't see us going TE in the first 3 rounds unless the situation is that the best TE still is there in the 3rd round.
I think we have 4 big needs: OL (both gaurd and help at tackle) secondary (both safety and corner help) WR (a typical WR is needed to give harvin some space) DL (only thinking DT / NT here)
thats how I see it. In order to have a chance to make those position a little stable we will have to trade down in the 15th + range perhaps.. Or I could see us trading down and still be able to draft martin, move c. johnson to gaurd (if he is strong enough to play there) and then start to adress everything else.

Reisner was just cut in favor of Mickey Shuler, fyi. I can't see Shiancoe coming back, though. He's gonna want to get paid & the vikes should want to play Rudolph. I'd be fine with Rudolph, Shuler, Reisner.

[Malte]

Reisner was just cut in favor of Mickey Shuler, fyi. I can't see Shiancoe coming back, though. He's gonna want to get paid & the vikes should want to play Rudolph. I'd be fine with Rudolph, Shuler, Reisner.

I am a bit in doubt of other team will pay up to get him, and I think we can get him cheap (shank that is). Anyway I just don't see us drafting a TE in the first two rounds, and if the best TE is still there in the 3rd, then I hope they take him.
I would like the combo of rudolph, shuler and reisner, IF Reisner and Schuler can be a good pass catchers as well.. Honestly then I don't know much of their skill set, but hopefully they will be decent. Also I think we will draft a TE later to compete next season

[Stubby]

Now the the Vikings beat the Redskins it creates another dilemma. Do you play for a meaningless win that could drop you as low as #6 pick. Or do you lose and keep the higher pick? I'm in favor of going all out for the win. First because it's the Bears. Second I don't believe in quitting. Most importantly a win and drop to 5 or 6 slot opens the door wider for potential trade for picks. Ever since Jerry Jones came up with that stupid draft pick value chart very few trades have been made for top 5 picks. Last time was #1 for #4 swap of Giants and Charges in the Manning Rivers trade. That was a post pick trade to boot. I think the Vikings have so many holes they'd be better off trading 5 or 6 slot to middle of the first and still getting Alshon Jeffery or Michael Floyd. If they address WR in FA, then Kirkpatrick, Jenkins and Dennard are all good 1st round corners.

[Stubby]

I disagree that tight end isn't going to be a need, Malte. Shiancoe is a free agent after this season. Kleinsasser too, if he doesn't retire that is, could leave via free agency.

Tight end is very important in this Musgrave offense. Dual tight end threats seem to be trending upwards (Patriots). And if Rudolph gets injured who do we have behind him that should actually be playing football?

Let Shiancoe go and got younger TE who can block. This will let Rudolph grow into primary receiving TE. Pro Football Focus rated pass blocking TEs earlier this year. Jimmy K was ranked number 1. Number 3 was Martellus Bennett from Dallas who is due to become a free agent. He's not fitting in with Dallas playbook so it looks like they will let him go.

[Malte]

Let Shiancoe go and got younger TE who can block. This will let Rudolph grow into primary receiving TE. Pro Football Focus rated pass blocking TEs earlier this year. Jimmy K was ranked number 1. Number 3 was Martellus Bennett from Dallas who is due to become a free agent. He's not fitting in with Dallas playbook so it looks like they will let him go.

I think It would be great if we were able to get martellus bennett. He is more than a decent pass catcher as well.
He is also not an old player and would help us towards the future. Hopefully he will come fairly cheap

[adammwarwas]

Bennett could be an interesting option for sure. He has managed to stay out of the news for being a dumbass for a few months too, hasn't he?

[Stubby]

Just a point here Purple....why would Seattle trade its franchise left tackle just to get a QB they couldnt protect? All the stars are shining too brightly in the masses eyes right now. RGIII? who says you could get a monster deal for him? At best, he is the third QB taken. Call me an old fuddy duddy here, but I still believe the best way to success is through the trenches. Sign the damn O Lineman, and quit playing madden with the draft.

Review the left tackles taken for the last ten years in the top 10 or so. zero rings....

Jake Long - miami sucks
Joe thomas - cleveland sucks
Okung - seattle has won it's last three games with him on IR, plus they suck.
Jason Peters - st louis sucks & so does JP
Trent williams - he sucks as do the skins
tyrone smith last year's playing RT for dallas.
hey, lets look back on the greatest LT prospect of all-time! Tony Mandarich. Maybe Kalil can be that good.
.........

Along those lines look at some of the best WRs and WRs on superbowl teams. First rounders don't equal greatness but many great receivers are drafted later.

Victor Cruz - undrafted
Wes Welker - undrafted
Steve Smith - 3rd round
Mike Wallace - 3rd round
Brandon Marshall - 4th round
All of these are in the 10 ten this year for wide outs.

My early favorite for late round steals are Jordan White from Western Michigan and Lance Lewis from Eastern Carolina. I didn't know much about White until I saw him at top of WR stats and did some digging. He was W.M's offense. As for Lewis, my son goes the South Carolina and I watch SC EC game and Lewis caught 13 passes for 2 TDs against the 2nd best pass D in the nation. He knows how to create space in man coverage and find the hole in zone.

[LeCount]

This team drafts a WR in the first 2-3 rounds, and I will be more pissed off than I ever have been at the Vikings.

TOO many holes to go star gazing. As Stubby has shown, WR is a position that can be filled anywhere in the draft, and some places beyond. If you have no, or few glaring holes, then go for a WR early, you might hit, but if you have the holes this team does...FUGETABOUTIT!

[Malte]

Along those lines look at some of the best WRs and WRs on superbowl teams. First rounders don't equal greatness but many great receivers are drafted later.

Victor Cruz - undrafted
Wes Welker - undrafted
Steve Smith - 3rd round
Mike Wallace - 3rd round
Brandon Marshall - 4th round
All of these are in the 10 ten this year for wide outs.

My early favorite for late round steals are Jordan White from Western Michigan and Lance Lewis from Eastern Carolina. I didn't know much about White until I saw him at top of WR stats and did some digging. He was W.M's offense. As for Lewis, my son goes the South Carolina and I watch SC EC game and Lewis caught 13 passes for 2 TDs against the 2nd best pass D in the nation. He knows how to create space in man coverage and find the hole in zone.

I saw the bowl game with W.M' versus Perdue, and the commentators said he caught 40% of balls for the entire offense.. Just to say this offense had atleast 3 wideouts on the field at the time, and in most situtaions the ran a spread offense with 5 wideouts. The most interesting thing was, that even though Perdue knew he was getting the ball in most of the pass attempts they couldn't stop him. He ended with 250+ receiving and a touchdown, granted that touchdown was on a flea flicker, but still it you take that catch away he is still above 200 yards for the game. Pretty nice stat line when the opposing team knows he is their number 1 target in the offense.
I also heard that he spend a huge amount on time watching film, preparing and studying the game. Could be a receiver that is worth looking at.
They said he would be to find in the 4th-5th round, but his stock could rise to a late 2nd-3rd rounder if he has a decent time at the combine, lets hope he trips a couple of times huh?

[Purple Faithful]

I'd have to agree with the sentiment you guys are expressing on wide receivers. We're just too far away to select a glamour wr. round 3 is plenty early to start looking, imo. I'd just take two wr's rd 3 or later.

[Stubby]

I've read it before that it is round 4 that makes the difference on a good or bad draft. Vikings may get extra 4th rounders as compensatory picks for Rice and Edwards. If used smarty, they could build a foundation for the future.